so let's start with if you could tell us
your name and where you were born and
yes uh i'm toshi fukudas
i was born in japan in
1948 so
since then i'm in japan
i studied
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private school junior high school high
school
also university in japan i studied
graduate school at yale new haven
connecticut
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germany
so that's kind of my background
since then i'm interested in
research and education so working in the
university
so
was when i was a student undergraduate
of wasada university so my professors
so nice professors
professor also professor
cartel those are very good professors
particular department in mechanical
engineering
why so the procedure professor
is good at biology related
mechanical systems
very very good at kind of a robotics
particular biped robot
he is considered to be a surgical father
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theoretical works they came to the u.s
to study more advanced control
such as advanced adaptive control
all the things so they uh
mathematical proof of the theory those
things
then i went back
to japan and then and joined such a
mechanical engineering laboratory of
government in scuba
so over there they saw a lot of research
was going on
such as robotics also celery
then i went to germany with germany
to study more such systems
so this season theories
software problems all those things
so starting starting with such a kind of
inspection
maintenance robot that
can good for the practical people so
many people want robot
to be really useful so they
there are not so many people working on
such a field of
inspection a maintenance robot that's
like
a regulator
that is a good field for
robot to make it the reason why
people were suffering from inspection
maintenance of all industrial capacity
for example like oil refinery chemical
plant or assembling fan
even power station so you know
everything has been done by
human in such a kind of a hostile
environment
say like already finally you know they
have to
clean up such a tank of storytelling
so you know then as a burden there's a
kind of a
leftover which comes with which is
the oil called oil
any kind of such a dirty thing
so they have to take it out but it's
so bad it's very bad also combat
kind of a preparation of oil such a kind
really hostile environment was it do
that
important so
inside so they pass on the part
because from the entrance to the
big old town storytap is so small
there's a plane over there past by part
and over there they have a mask over
here so within 20 minutes
they assemble it over here they come
about here so they
operate to do something to clean up
now i got the idea
why don't make such a kind of a modular
robot
okay they could make a model about do
that stuff like that
as go inside autonomously
get inside they make their own
robot so it's a kind of safe
reconfiguration type of robot
that we call seller lovers that i
started a lot of research
i published 100 papers okay on this
also i wrote a book later on 1994
on this concert robot such a
model the model but you know easter can
small
consist of small parts they get together
then
if they get together such a simple
function
unit become a big kind of unit
so that's the kind of those systems can
play
very complicated tasks that's again my
idea so i did it
all the work here such a modern robotic
system
also that kind of self can organization
also safe sort of
kind of expandable robot system
such evolutionary robotics that i love
it sourcing
so my idea just started from a small
such as inspection missile robot and
look at kind of such a kind of
real situation the eye that is
extracted such a kind of component wise
such as then we made a theory of such a
kind of
proposition so means such a simple
function unit
make a proposition then they because
they're all kind of
complicated robust in terms of kind of
unity
so it's dependent distributable system
too
oh component unit so now you can say
you thought like a lego type of robot so
that you had no lego okay no lego robot
miners so later on i was invited
people in denmark so i met
those people from a lego company
at that time they did not produce
such a mainstream yet
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mainstream regular lego robot yeah
so i was so happy to see how they
make get ideas i know they go okay
very nice plastic one but america's such
a robust system
that's a good so i realized
i come up to such a lego concept of lego
robot
okay but the record is the cellular
robot is more complicated
that's it so may starting from the
component wise
surprise you need small functional unit
basically clusters they make a kind of a
system you know where the system becomes
more
bigger system so try we can make
such a kind of a society of robot beings
like that that's a concept
so i made such a concept for
my research about modular robotics it
took
10 years so when was the first the first
robot that you were talking about that
you
thought of that goes into the the oil
yeah yeah when was that it was like a
1980
1983 to 94.
and how did you become familiar with the
oil refinery system
yes important is uh visit
many factories
i made a technical committee on such a
maintenance inspection maintenance robot
that's great if i'm so young
i had a kind of opportunity to make a
technical committee
inspection maintenance robot
because nobody paid attention
those things because you know people are
those days 1980s
they are pay attention to the theory
of robot theory of the kind of
manipulation
theory of kinematics theory of dynamics
of manipulation
so they are using such a kind of theory
using such a kind of a puma robot
and vision system so they can
do some kind of experiment in my case
i didn't start those things instead i
visit many many kind of
industries what is useful for that so i
visit
a factory such a cancer gas supply
company
energy supply companies more kind of
very good companies
separate company so you know
how they can maintain the system that's
a
first thing okay love it so
you know this is a real application they
are people
are suffering they try to make a lot
like that
of course there's no such a lot okay so
that's why i started to make a simple
one
inspection pipeline simple pipeline
from inside or from outside
inspect kind of a kind of psych crack
kind of hole something like that so
the system will keep such a kind of
pipeline
in in a good condition so
everywhere you know if you have a plant
if you have a kanpapa everywhere there's
a pipeline
pipeline pepper and pipeline it's a kind
of monster of a pipeline okay so there
are a lot of fights
so that we need special time then
more to see the factory they are
suffering
i mean many americans such a robot after
that i realized
g design wise we can make such a
say modular robot because
i want the same every time whenever i
design the robot
why can't
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viewpoint such an autonomously assembly
robot
working together also other system up to
yes and
such a more kind of profound
such a significance of research we call
cellular water system because it comes
from
cell cell system here comes clusters
then systems here there are another
system they work together
that's a cellular robot process not
cellular form
and yeah they always make a job like
that
this is such a disputable system this
successful one's a robust system
also that's a kind of setup okay so
itself evolutionary about the system
and also it's a full tournament robot
because something wrong
just removes those things come up a new
one come up here so makes
you keep the system working and
that's a great thing so that i love such
an
idea that did it then i tried to make it
small
small small component it's a big okay
like ourselves so small let's say our
cell is a kind of
10 micromax 20 micrometer how we can
make such
small small small then
micro technology to make those things
small
small small so so i made a kind of a
robot system how to handle such a kind
of small part
like that also i mean i try to
handle such a kind of a small kind of
biological system
under microscope
there was a kind of sort of a small pond
in front of the university
after lunch just went there and then
make up
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uh
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small kind of undertake
100 micrometer or something smaller okay
unfortunately i cannot cut it by hand
i cannot catch it so i started to make a
kind of magic breath to
handle to catch themselves
so it's called micro manipulator
at that time i was one of the pioneer
to make such of my micro manipulator
what kind of what year was this that's a
90 80
1986 okay so seven as you're doing a lot
of the modular stuff you're already
outside that's at the same time was the
modular stuff you mentioned that earlier
you had worked with the professor who
was very
interested in biology and biomechanics
when i was undergraduate okay
did that have any effect on when you
were working on the modular robots were
you looking
were you inspired by biological systems
at all and how they interact
you mentioned it was like cells so are
you looking at different
those ideas kind of biological things
what i learned from my professor the
biological system is kind of
sort of a kind of autonomous
also called robust also like say
kind of a silver assembly doesn't
see for example why did my person did it
there is my lecture well he directed the
professor
smoke a cigarette okay
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you may think this part is broken
no no budget is always trying to figure
circumvent such a problem so come up
with compensate
try to compensate such a fall that's it
so if it was true okay we were like
likewise we being if we have something
wrong we always certainly
if our time our brain something and
brings some kind of snaps die
but it doesn't matter it's kind of
refuting it's called
plasticity so in such a way we can
our bodies have such a robust you know
like that so what i learned from him is
robustness
such a kind of biological system that's
important
that's why those ideas went to mass
moderate
for tolerance system like that how the
current system can be
robust then we can make the kind of
savory ways
like this now
to the leader people here
in the robotic community they are
talking about modular robotics
space application some other
qualification
but i did something
a long time ago i think it's it's kind
of interesting
that now the modular stuff is theory yes
where when you're doing it
it was you got inspired from application
yes
and was there in the community in the
early 80s
what was the i guess it seemed like you
took
you you went away from theory yeah and i
guess what was that like was there
something about theory that
was unsatisfying or not
so second but most people go from the
theory okay
my case different i want to kind of feel
kind of real feel okay you can
industry so look at the problem you know
extract the problem
and then then make a kind of a kind of a
theoretical model when i come up here
those kind of experiment about the scene
so just a little bit different from kind
of original
but the those that nobody have
such idea mostly robotics
that's a good thing is that kind of to
come up with such a kind of thing
to the theory ways that you can moderate
robotics
as a serial about system that's a good
idea it's a good thing for me
so then when i did it micro going micro
micro micro
small small small what happened
again hit the kind of biological system
biological system is so robust okay so
now i look at it okay
we can handle such a kind of cell small
cell
real cell they biological hunger cell
one
pick up here two together three together
make a cut module
they try to make kind of a program make
a can say
like a human such a human body like that
then later on we can make
source biological
robotic system you know sort of nervous
system
made by such active shark
manipulators so now i'm working
micro or nah
bio robot or nano bio robotic
so that well we are making making such a
kind of move
small nano manipulator
30 years ago in about the system
now here i'm talking about the real
biological cellular
cell systems here how we can make the
self bring yourself here
here's a here so make you kind of see so
this is very very challenging nobody
succeeded but the people doing okay so
from the
stem cell ips
so now they're making themselves making
those things
so if we can make a such a kind of a
system
like that for some system as we want
that's a kind of very very
interesting and very challenging so
that's like doing that you can buy on
bio nano or robot system
still now i like that you can say
concept wise
small cell come up this kind of module
still my closet all day
when i was young
i like it of course such a big
difference
consequence and all the things that
that's my robot training
of course other people's things no like
a human robot or some other
kind of more by robots like that but my
robotic concept comes from such a
cell system and what are some of the
important conceptual kinds of
um innovations that you've made that you
had to think about
from going from you know the very the
larger system and then to the smaller
smaller systems
they're also probably different
challenges at different scales exactly
so that's interesting is that so small
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if it's a small they can communicate
each other
if you have an african module right
maybe you can have a loose communication
between that if you have a big system
never have a direct communication each
other between yourself
okay so the how they can
make such a construction how they do
that
it's branded from the v part how do you
convey such a kind of
intention what to do to the next
next one how to tell next till the next
over there
so that they can propagate from here to
the other okay at the end
so this is a very interesting
communication problem too
that so i admitted how we can make a
task
how we can decompose that task how we
can communicate each other
how this isn't so that how what the
number of a concept
we we require that's a kind of theory
right
we can make such a kind of several more
systems theories
that's a good contribution too so that's
why i made a book
in 1994 afterwards that's great so
then after that we make many many things
you know
how you can put the intelligence more
like that
using a neural network or a kind of
fuzzy logic over there or abortion
computation
think about neural network for example
one cell
one snap doesn't work if you have two
three four more
more then they can make something
okay that's the kind of thing or what i
got it
other time i also started such a neural
network why so
one slap no two see one more more
then you can have some kind of a good
yes
do the result okay make
sure more with more component
then you can have some something
better i can say kind of a
performance likewise my lovers
hardware wise small cell unit
simple unit they come up here together
so that's my theory nobody people
like such a model about theory like that
i mean such a foundation of the cellular
overseas modern robotics that i proud of
those things and even now those who
come up here from the biological system
i like it so sometimes you we have to
work over such a similar
type of thing kind of a mammoth
technology
microelectromechanical system also we
have to work with some nano
system
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and did you were there competing
theories or
other people when did other people start
working
on the modular robot oh those days i'm
only one
here to even buy my iwp where i
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society i'm only one
working on such a kind of serial
robotics that i like it
so no competition
people come up with a multiple robot
system
but for distribution here like that but
this
these people talking about those the
mobile mobile
together working together communication
mine is more like a kind of a sell
assembly
talking we can make a system like that
so it's a really different type of kind
of direction
it's better to have some unique strange
idea
but may it like that so
now that people use working modern level
try to make a use of such a concept
muzzle robot
to make such a space station
like that that's a kind of basic things
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and you said there wasn't um really much
competition but since it was such a new
idea
how did the community uh what was the
reaction
the actual of course of people there
people said it's so stupid
it's a stupid idea come on why don't you
design the robot so
in a way
so they are making such a
non-linear control theories or something
like that
in such a time i talk about and how they
can communicate each other how they
each self work together how they can
talking each other so i worked those
things along
so that's why many people saw
strange things even my people were
rejected
to the conference reject to the journal
but they always
recognize my work that's a good thing
for me
yes it's uh also case
people might think robot closing the
robot is just
kind of puma money predator also like a
mobile
robot also computer vision system with
that
totally my approach to robotics
completely different from such a
sort of regular way of research and
minds more and about
something learned from industry from
land from
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you think there was something else also
in addition to
going into industry and looking and you
know
i guess this unique way of thinking uh
seems like maybe it would take a little
bit more than
than that too do you think there was any
other factors yeah of course there are
other factors because though they also
worked about such a kind of i did later
many many works
such as photoreal computing
for computing okay
so like a kind of apollo launching
apollo
and they need a five computer for
redundancy
in case one something wrong
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triple triple module redundancy system
and i said well say okay how we
as you know biological system is so
robust
how we can make the robust is also
robust
that's a good thing to think about okay
but
those are also good for industry
industry people think
the system has to be robust working so
long time in case something wrong like
that i use such a concept to the
manufacturer
indigenous manufacturing system now the
people call that's a
polynomial or the people call those
systems okay
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another way so but in my case
yeah if you carry heavy
payroll don't make such a big giant
robot alone
instead several of small levels come
together
carry together okay always say
if the manipulator middle of such a kind
of module
something wrong take off bring another
one
just past wise so they
re-configurate their structure
autonomously
that's kind of my concept but really
industry not so easy
but the consoles in good concept
then actually it was made
industry who made it
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so every robot have a same function
okay but they assemble this part
first stage second stage such forces
fixes
then they can make a product okay
once they are not so
many demands one or two robot
out only three levels over here
so syrians can still can make it okay so
it's
like kind of a human being okay
if the demand depends on demand if the
demand is not
bad okay so few robots work if a lot of
different comings
and then mirror would work on the line
so that's kind of the reality and i was
so happy to see such my concept
something that real-life in such an
industry
as a matter of fact it sucks to those
good people and when did denzel
accompany
1980s 1980s 80s
so like 80 19 1989 or 90 something like
that
so so they also received such a kind of
award because sort of things fantastic
okay like a human okay they make a lot
of
lines
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the next one make another step then
another
so the final they make a product at the
end
that's amazing is that interesting right
if you think that they are not swimming
then just to sleep out
take a rest the other way so
you know that's a kind of recoverable
flexible manufacturing system
did industry in general have a better
reaction initially
than academia to your work no no because
it's
maybe people thought maybe good idea
if we can realize it because the
realization is more
uh pragmatic okay
so they use just a part of an idea
how they can make the system redundant
to make the system robust
also or in case something wrong
how the system can keep going
not important okay so that's a that's a
such idea okay but not whole idea
but you know one of the examples i just
mentioned you know
that you can deform the configurable
manufacturing system okay
one two three one two three four five in
okay then
some independent demand
still some group can make those systems
okay make a production that's
very nice okay that's good so i
myself love such ideas and
also even i don't care other people
don't like my idea okay
that's good must have a good
unique creative idea make
this experiment theory
losing love and how did you get
funding for your ideas
simply come from a kind of a government
also also by support from the industry
industry people gave a kind of a
research fund which is also
not a lot of money all government
give me up to money okay for research
because kind of
such a strange idea at the beginning
funding
religious leaders okay or nothing there
is zero
the university are using inverse funding
okay so then i'm going
another coming more and more and more
because it's a kind of very nice
idea finally it's fantastic
that's a great idea right so that's why
they like such a kind of robotics
systems and did you have connections
from
having worked at the miti mail
that helped you also or uh meetings or
something like uh
such a kind of advanced robotics
project i have them one of the members
of such a
committee advanced robotics they made
such a kind of maintenance
inspection maintenance robot for nuclear
power plant
or some kind of power generation like
that since
jose i am one of the kind of goodwill
tk committee chairman on inspection
maintenance robot
which is people usually don't pay
attention that's why i was
one of the members of certified advanced
robotics
and i learned many many things because
those industry involved in such a kind
of big part of the midi
they have a so nice kind of
kind of taking car advantage
to make the system realizable
spending about say 200 million usd
which i cannot spend okay so i just i'm
very happy to see how they can do that
so like we say how they can make them
kind of
fall like a robot for inside and how the
particular operation going on
how the kind of communication
going on how the kind of the laser
can be used through the scene for
example like if it's a smoke there
we cannot see each other but laser beam
with a
laser beam or sword can be
with a long wavelength
can go through we can see through small
that's about 25 years ago and then
working together something and i see the
other results
going on so it takes the fire they're
small
these are people cannot see this doesn't
work
so with a long wavelength okay
say co2
gas laser can see that through that and
some of
them are not amazing from such a kind
this is a kind of good thing to involve
such an industry kind of government
particle brazil i can explore more ideas
to do so
that's a good thing so violence is are
you
involved in those kind areas inspection
and
maintenance panel
company industry he
realized something very important so
they made a project
they come to my love so also
have kind of a tie grab it together
research words and i love to do so
so it's a really good thing
but 1990s more
even the more theoretical works
i'm moving um like say kind of a
dried one to the wet areas so like a
more
biological cell manipulation so but
still i like such a grenadine
and did you have you had uh
collaborators also from biology or
yes of course without collaboration with
the biology you cannot work
biology is so complex profound
also not clear yet okay
mathematical way so we know a lot of
knowledge with a lot of experience from
biological biologists
that's why i work together also i work
with
medical doctors oh yes because you do
some medical robotics as well
i used to work a medical robot okay to
have an intravascular surgeon in your
brain
what kind of a hurt through this kind of
cutter with small wire going inside here
like that
or heart okay then the problem is
the robot is okay
but are no way
how good my robot is
how you can show that of course we can
use a kind of dog
we can make artificial kind of a
bracelet by glass
that's not good that's why i had to uh
finally what i did is i made kind of a
human data was
serial city scan mri data
so that just you know i use those things
i just exact the same
blood vessel as you have
that's a mother then i tried to
show how my robot's so good to go inside
your human body of course like a blood
vessel
but then whatever yes that's the kind of
simulator
human exactly schema similar
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not my robot to learn
about the body they said well you're
always fine but i can do by myself
but i need some simulator okay like i
mean because
humans are human we cannot do that okay
so that
they don't now because of the same
medication like it then we made a
simulator
based on silica okay nothing
more okay so
intravascular simulator okay
then people like it so finally we made a
company
sell it because there's other kind of
venture business
spin up for my lab still
exists here for the last six seven years
that's a nice great spin-off company
which i
most professor in japan
don't have such experience to make a
robot from their own research
i mean i know in the u.s
it is easy you say you about so many
kind of companies so
professor mega company but
i know some very very kind of
good in the lone brooks robot
who was kind of a microwave in
boston my company not that big but
there is a survival selling and human
simulator
to many kind of hospitals many kind of
potato
manufacturers i know you have to go to
dinner at six so um
maybe maybe you want to stop because i
wanted to ask some
questions about your early times like
about vasada
and um the university of tokyo and stuff
but it may take time so do you wanna i
can do that quickly okay
so why wasn't she was say that
what was it like i mean we're curious
because we you know you have this
extreme
amazing experience of having been
invested at the beginning
of when things were just kind of
starting to happen so what was it like
what who
who was there what were the robots what
were the questions
was so famous about such about the
biological system by robotics
so let's say no people know that
i instead i didn't go to static and free
dynamics for the material science or
the thermodynamics in the usa
instead i went to control engineering
that's the reason
so over there
by chance that's a great thing and i
learned missing
from the undergraduate so
those professors is so good to
not teaching he says they try to give us
some
something let us think about it
that's a good they are not a typical
japanese professors they are could be
different you know
they just give a time okay this is this
resistance
so they are not good at teaching instead
they are trying to
sing to for us to think about
why so myself that's why i love to
uh appreciate those professors
so they give a time for us to think
about it
was there any particular professor that
you could that you remember that
was good at this yeah that's why like i
said the intro
cartoon professor also for robotics also
kind of blocked us a
steer for bio biological inspired
robotics
okay that's the two prophets there or
most of them pass away there's so many
congrats
here and what were some of the early
exciting projects that you worked on
with them yeah
let's say i used to work on such a kind
particularly
what i did is undergrad is some kind of
circulation system to keep
our human organs alive
such a kind of
that's good also i made a kind of many
fluidic
system so kind of freaks can you make
kind of a system
how application-free this system
now people are working on micro physics
small one
i think i have to go yes probably here